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Beverly Kaye: Developing a Flourishing Career
Beverly Kaye has made a career out of helping others with their careers. Her insight into talent management has changed the future for many employees in many organizations.
Bev is the founder and CEO of Career Systems International, a company that provides services and products to organizations that deal with talent management. She is the author of the career classic, Up Is Not The Only Way. She is an internationally known speaker on career development and has counseled companies on attracting and retaining good employees. Her book Love 'Em or Lose 'Em: Getting Good People to Stay is the other side of the conversation that we are going to have today. The book centers on what companies can and should do to retain talent.
This interview focuses on the employees' own roles in making their careers develop and flourish. Bev received her doctorate from UCLA. She and her colleague, Sharon Jordan-Evans, are the co-authors of Love It, Don't Leave It: 26 Ways To Get What You Want at Work. The topic of this latest book is getting the most out of your current employment situation – what you can do to succeed.
RD – Bev, you have written extensively about attracting and retaining talent. One of the more catchy statements in the field today is that "People join companies but leave their bosses." We know that some managers and some bosses do terrific things to attract and retain good people. But, we're not all lucky enough to work with such companies or such bosses. Many of us get a mixture. You and Sharon have researched this in some depth and found that it may not be such a smart thing to walk out as soon as the going gets tough. Bev, what prompted you to do this research?
BK – The previous book that you had mentioned, Love 'Em or Lose 'Em, prompted the research. That book was written for managers, and Sharon and I delivered the message to managers worldwide. They said, "You're right. I have to care about my people. I have to notice them." They asked whether the employees also have to do something. Shouldn't they be responsible for engaging and retaining themselves? Sharon and I said, "That's right." In all my work in the career area, the employee takes responsibility and the manager takes responsibility. For some reason, we forgot it when we wrote the book for managers. Managers made us remember that the employee has a role too.
RD – How did you research this book?
BK – We started with the research in the previous book. We had collected data from 20,000 people about why they stay in organizations. We found there were certain stay-factors that were not all related to pay. In fact, we wrote about them in the book. We listed 26 reasons people stay. With this book, we asked why did you leave when things like learning and working with good people aren't that hard for you to get. And what we heard time and time again was, "I didn't ask. No one asked me and I didn't ask anyone." The idea that employees were not happy and were not doing anything about it became very clear to us. That's what started us and that's what we based the research on in this book.
RD – When people decide to leave a company, what does your research show is the typical reason?
BK – Well, it's interesting. What they write on the exit interview and what they say when asked is two different things: (1) I'm leaving for more money. (2) I'm leaving for a better opportunity. But underneath that are many other issues and reasons. I think money and opportunity are the easiest things to say. Under that are things about the boss. "My boss didn't honor me, my boss didn't respect me, my boss micromanaged me. I felt bored, I felt stale." What we found was that people really do leave before they've checked out what is possible inside their current company.
RD – For those that don't leave, what are the main reasons they stay with the company?
BK – Our research said there were many. I'll tell you what the top five were in a study of 20,000 workers. (1) They stay for learning and growth. "If I'm learning and being challenged, and everyday I have to do something slightly different, I stay." (2) If they see their careers being developed. (3) They stay because they work with some great people. Leaving those great people is hard. (4) They stay if they are working with a great boss – a boss who supports and respects them. (5) They stay for pay – a pay that is fair and competitive. The interesting insight we found is that pay is never initially high on the scale. It is driven up the scale if those other things aren't there. Pay gets more important the less I have of the other factors.
RD – How would you characterize the 20,000 employees that you interviewed?
BK – We interviewed some and we collected data from others through our research surveys. For the most part, I think everything applies to the blue-collar worker. But, I think we're talking more about the knowledge worker. We're talking about the professional who has had some education and is a knowledge worker.
RD – If one is a blue-collar worker in a union, does that somehow give you less degrees of freedom in terms of how you can be proactive?
BK – For some, yes. There are some who will say that the union won’t let them. For others, they say there are always ways to be proactive. It depends on your mindset and your attitude.
RD – I know you have a strong belief that people need to take a proactive role in making their careers a success. Tell us about that belief.
BK – I think that employees fall into two categories: they are either opportunity whiners, or opportunity miners. The whiners are those who whine about not having enough opportunity. They say that the boss didn’t tell them. They didn’t get feedback. They complain and they wait. Those people get aggravated easily.
The opportunity miners say that if there is a way, it’s up to me. No one is going to do it for me. I have to ask for what I want and I have to take care of myself. I think with organizations being leaner than ever, the manager’s span of control has increased substantially. It’s hard to sit down and talk to the employees and manage the careers of 23 people. The individual employee has to take care of himself/herself.
RD – You say in your book that employees leave for greener pastures and often find Astroturf instead. People don’t often realize how much job equity they have in their current jobs and how much of that equity they give up when they leave. Tell us about job equity and what is given up when moving to a new company.
BK – We think that a couple of things are happening in this economy. Too many people are sitting in jobs. They aren’t happy waiting for the economy to shift. They are waiting for a better boss instead of being proactive about their own job. People aren’t looking at what they have before they jump ship.
We’ve named four kinds of job equity. I think most people think of only one or two when they are considering leaving.
One kind of job equity is Financial Equity. Of the financial opportunities that you have, what are the ones that you might not get somewhere else? You have to take that into consideration.
The second kind of equity is Skill Equity. After you’ve been in the job awhile, maybe around six months, you really learn how to match your skill set to what the organization needs. That takes some time. The company trains you and you train them on how to best use you. It takes time to build that elsewhere.
The third one is Social Equity. That is the people I eat lunch with, the people I run with, the people I turn to for ideas and the people who support me. All of that takes time to build when you go to a new job.
The fourth kind of job equity is Influence Equity. It is all the ways I’ve learned to negotiate in the organization. I know who to go to in order to get what I want. I know how to present in front of certain people. I think people don’t look at how rich they are in their current job and how long that will take to gain this equity somewhere else.
RD – The percentage of job changers who fail to make it in another company is quite substantial. How would you tie the job equity concepts into that?
BK – We don’t realize the political environment that we are walking into. There’s just so much you can learn from an interview or from research on the company. Often we walk into a climate or a culture that really isn’t quite right. I believe that we don’t always think about our own job fit.
There has to be an enjoyment fit. I like using these skills and they are fun. We often have a skill match, but we are bored. Is there a value fit? Do I value what the department is doing and what the organization is doing?
RD – When is the right time to change companies?
BK – There are some times when you should change. In the entire book, which is written around the alphabet, we said that you should try everything from A to Z before you move out. The last chapter is entitled “But if you really have to go.” We are not trying to be a Polly Anna and say stay. But before you decide to go, check every chapter again.
One of the reasons for leaving could be an ethics issue. I saw something go on that compromises my values. My boss is someone that I could never get away from and I can’t take it anymore. Career-wise, I’ve hit the ceiling. I don’t see what I want here. Or, I want to put my career in a different direction.
RD – I have observed that those that never switched companies were more vulnerable in downsizing. What is your sense of this?
BK – You have a good point. Once I’ve gotten through a tough time and I see there is another side, it’s a great lesson for someone who has been pushed out. I think that you can have success when you face downsizing or mergers if you have the proactive mindset. In our research, we found those who were pushed out, most times said they didn’t think it was bad that they were pushed out. Often they found something better.
RD – Let’s look at the main issues of the book. People need to own their own careers. What are the key things that they should be doing to own their careers?
BK – You have to look at the 5 Ps of career development. They are person, perspective, place, possibilities and plans.
Person means to manage your own career you had better think about your strengths and abilities. Who are you really as a person?
Perspective is about how you are seen by others. Do they see you as you see yourself? What is your reputation?
Place means how is this organization changing. How is this industry changing? Unless you key into place factors, you miss the writing on the wall and you are shocked and surprised and you are not ready.
Number four is possibilities. You should always have a game plan. What other options can be pursued? How do I move laterally?
The last P is Plan. What do I have to do to get myself ready for any of the options?
RD – What are some of the things that people need to do to own their own careers? One of the things you talk about is courage. I’ve looked at courage as something people have to have if they are going to succeed. It’s a significant factor in taking on a challenge.
BK – In a way, what I’m talking about is interpreneuring. I have to have the courage to speak up for myself – to ask for what I want. I also have to be plan-full in how I do it. Courage alone cannot guide me. I need to do some thinking through. Courage plus planning plus thinking plus mapping it out is a smart way to plan your career.
RD – One of the concepts that you talk about is WIFT – what’s in it for them. Why is this important?
BK – We’re saying that when you are asking for what you want, you’d better think clearly about what you want. Be specific and remember what is in it for the person you are asking. The more you can list about what’s in it for them, the better chance you have of getting it.
Richard DiGeorgio is the principal of Richard M. DiGeorgio & Associates, a management consulting firm. He is a change management consultant, leadership trainer and coach. His firm is a network of quality consulting firms, who have worked in numerous industries and at all levels of Fortune 500 companies.
Mr. DiGeorgio has twenty-nine years of experience as an executive and change consultant with three Fortune 500 firms; eighteen of those years were spent at Mobil Oil. His last assignment was as an internal change consultant on assignment to Project Horizon, Mobil Oil's effort to improve its effectiveness in building capital projects and save $500M a year.
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